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Tuesday January 17, 2006 at 10:08 am

Can there be good without bad?
How do we judge?

I had a discussion with someone the other day and we came to complete disagreement on this subject.

I
am in full belief that there cannot be anything good without the
comparison that something is bad. For everything that exists that
isn’t a median, there is an opposite.

For example, there is no
way that there can be white [the reflection of all light] without the
presence of black [the absorbtion of all light]. How are we to judge
what is one or the other if one doesn’t exist?

It doesn’t
even have to be that black and white [pardon the pun]. Suppose there
is white and there is off-white, then the white considered white
because it is being compared to the off white. If one had known off
white their entire lives as the whitest of white, then they would judge
it as the whitest of white until they saw the true white.

My friend differs and says that things can be good just in the essence of being good. His example is this:

Say
there is a bowl that suits your purpose. That bowl is good because it
suits your purpose. You are not comparing it to anything because it is
simply good unto itself.

My argument is this: How do you know
that the bowl is good? You know it is good because in your mind you
can think of things that wouldn’t suit your purpose… like a plate. A
plate would not be good for the purpose, but the bowl would.

However,
if the bowl didn’t exist, then you would use the only other thing
availible to you (the plate) and you would probably call it good
because you didn’t know any better.

It’s like in Math when your
teacher teaches you a way to solve a problem. You solve the problem
and you believe that the method is good because it enabled you to solve
a problem.

Later, you find out that the way you chose to solve
the problem is considered the “bad” way compared to the simpler way to
solve the problem. Without the simpler way, you would have continued
to consider the “bad” solution “good”.


Question of the day:
Can there be good without bad?

mAnGLeDmiSTlEtoE said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:12 am

Ah yes, definition of by opposites. I’m not sure I said that right, but this was a key point of my philosophy class. =P It was one of the only main ideas that I understood. I agree with you.

spygirl4 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:12 am

no, there cannot be… a necessary evil. complicate it more when you consider that “good” and “bad” are subjective.

Kindivisual said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:16 am

: Basic eastern philosophy.where there is one, there is the other.I agree with yours for the most part.

mruvula said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:17 am

yes there can. ‘good’ would totally lose its meaning because there wouldn’t be an opposite, but it would still exist. it’s like playing games when you’re little. teachers don’t want your feelings hurt, so they only allow games where everyone wins. it’s fun at first, but you get bored after a while cuz all you ever do is win.
that’s one of the arguments against the concept of heaven. in heaven you can only do good things. for instance, you can have all the ice cream that you’d ever want. einstein theorized a world where you could never die, similar to heaven in that you could live forever and do only good. in the end, most people living in that world jumped into a whirlpool that allowed you to kill yourself, because people were going insane without the opposite of ‘good’

estoychino said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:27 am

No, there is balance in the universe. They come hand in hand.

xtenstarsonsticksx said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:28 am

No.

timbospoo said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:30 am

this is kinda cliche but maybe you haven’t heard it… you think that things like light and darkness or cold and hot are opposites… but when you look at it from a physics point of view, what is darkness except for the absence of light? what is cold except for the absence of heat? There can be complete darkness where there’s absolutely no light or complete cold where there’s absolutely no heat, but there is no complete light or hot. There can always be more heat and light. This is more of a way to explain why there can be evil if God is good… evil is just the lack of the presence of good. But yah, I guess it could work in this case too… bad is just the absence of good. bad is not a thing in and of itself, but it is a nothing, a lack of thing. but uh… that’s all pretty abstract and arbitrary. that’s what you get for asking abstract and arbitrary questions! ^_^timbo!

StoopidSavant said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:38 am

I agree, the concept of “good” must be predicated upon an opposite condition by which it can be compared. I don’t think your friend fully understands the real concept of “good” if he simplifies it down to the bowl analogy. Really, if there was no bad, he would just say “this is a bowl. Its purpose is to contain liquid (or food, whatever).” He would have no metric to determine if that bowl was inferior or superior in performance if he didn’t have another bowl to gauge it by.
I don’t want to get theological, but I would guess that your friend is Christian, seeing as how many of them seem to believe that the concept of “good” is inherent to all existence while “bad” only arose out of perversion. Of course, this overly simplistic view of things ignores such situations such as when murdering millions of Muslims in the middle ages was “good.”

TrinaVo said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:38 am

i think they HAVE to coexist in this world to keep it balanced.  never in my mind could i think of something without having a negative point come flying at me.  maybe it’s because i tend to focus more on the bad.

Stone_the_clergy said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:39 am

Sorry I didnt read but I have to hurry because i need to go to work. there can be no good without evil because all adjectives are based on comparison… there can never be a median really your more or less one way. Im very religious and if there was not evil… G-d would not be good. He would be it. So by taking away all evil there is no need for good and all there is left is nothing. Ying-Yang Saying that all things must coexist. Life and death…. If there was no life just death than the species would die off. If there was no death but life… then overpopulation.It would not exist. because then some of the good would make evil because some would be better than others

kyleeuin said,

January 17, 2006 @ 10:49 am

I think the question should be in reverse. Can there be bad without good. Good can live on it’s own. Bad can not. Bad is just good twisted all around

davidngo said,

January 17, 2006 @ 11:04 am

for once, i agree with you.
the only way you can define good, is to define what is bad.  the power to distinguish good from bad is the one of the most important and necessary skills to a human being.  that is the basis of any moral system as well.  there can be no good without bad, and no bad without good.  the yin and the yang rely on each other. 
your friend is wrong.

PhilKwon81 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 11:19 am

the question you pose, although introduced by a sort of rubric, is extrememly subjective. there are so many conditions and stipulations that need to be placed or defined before one could really answer without ambiguity. a definitive “no” or “yes” answer would completely depend on the opinions and/or perspective of those who took the time to read your entry. what i find more interesting is how people attempt to explain how they reached their conclusion. but, since you asked, i would say that it is possible for good to exist without bad. this is completely dependent on the agreement from readers and yourself that, in fact, a person, object or place can be less than good without being bad. for instance, you would say that michael jordan is good at basketball but you wouldn’t say that larry bird was bad. in most people’s eyes michael jordan was the greatest ever to play the game, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else who played was bad. there are an infinite number of tangents that this argument can take but for the sake of my slowly-developing carpel tunnel syndrome we’ll leave it at that.

tHexDonStER said,

January 17, 2006 @ 11:22 am

If there are good guys, there are bad guys too…so there can be no good without bad, for example aquaman is a good guy who protect fishes, and the bad guys are the fishermens, fishermens kill fishes and feed hungry people who crave cavier and fish’s. Aquaman kill the fishermens to save the fishes but somehow it make the people who crave the fishes very mad….so there can be no good without bad.

xthexTruthxisxoutxtherex said,

January 17, 2006 @ 11:47 am

bad is the absence of good. not the opposite. there is a fundamental difference.

CaKaLusa said,

January 17, 2006 @ 11:48 am

born to be bad.

Leda said,

January 17, 2006 @ 12:02 pm

perhaps “good” is transientso you were stuck with a plate all your life, and that plate was good. then you discover the bowl, and now the bowl is good and the plate isn’t. anytime you find something better, then that is good and the former is good no longer.

Lion230786 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 12:04 pm

i agree… isn’t it the principle of yin and yang?

nancyis said,

January 17, 2006 @ 12:07 pm

i like your post..hehe.. they must be christians..

franksabunch said,

January 17, 2006 @ 12:23 pm

There can, but it would be harder to appreciate it…

dooE said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:08 pm

If man bit into an apple how would he know it tasted good? If bad didn’t exist, he wouldnt know the difference between a good taste or a bad one, it would just be all around good. But he’s bound to stumble upon a rotten apple and surely his senses don’t fool him, it definitely tastes horrible compared to other apples he’s eaten. So I guess good is good until you stumble across that rotten apple.

JellOtto said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:09 pm

Babies don’t know.

auracle said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:15 pm

I think everyone before me has answered your rhetorical question. Everything is relative to something else. You should always some sort of reference point to compare to.you need to find smarter ppl to talk to. i would have had a headache arguing with a person like that. you’re either with him or against him. There are 3 types of ppl in this world. Those who can count and those who can’t. =P

prodigyvioana said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:15 pm

‘course not.
“born to be bad” – CaKaLusa lol chris makes the dumbest [but funniest] comments

chrnobreak said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:23 pm

i think i’m just going to save myself the troubling of repeating yoru and mr. vu and recap with a lil’ bit of the second chapter of “tao te ching”All can know good as good only because there is evil.Therefore having and not having arise together.Difficult and easy complement each other.Long and short contrast with each other;High and low rest upon each other;Voice and sound harmonise each other;Front and back follow one another.

Ssweet_dreemzZ said,

January 17, 2006 @ 1:46 pm

Hm, I don’t think so.
That’s an interesting concept.

MysticismMode said,

January 17, 2006 @ 2:14 pm

It depends on how you look at it. If you are talking about short term spur of the moment good, then yea. Maybe someone could be lucky enough to win tickets to their favorite band’s concert or something. Thats never a bad thing…
But i figure that there always has to be something bad, not to balance it out really, just to compare it too. How would you know that something is good, if you didnt know that something else was bad. Say that you are feeling really bad one day, and then the next day you feel amazing. If you hadn’t felt so bad on the first day, do you really think that the seccond day, you would have felt so amazing?
You probably just felt better, but you were so glad that you felt better, that you thought you felt amazing. If you hadnt felt bad on that first day, then you would probably just feel normal on the seccond.

JTLYK said,

January 17, 2006 @ 2:19 pm

Can there be good without bad?!?!what?!?!Well duh!!!!why not?

dehzep said,

January 17, 2006 @ 2:28 pm

good question!

Chiznarles said,

January 17, 2006 @ 2:40 pm

bowls are good.. very good.

gonchoi said,

January 17, 2006 @ 2:59 pm

Good cannot exist without bad…it wont be complete… how would be define good?

numanga said,

January 17, 2006 @ 3:00 pm

I love this analysis.
And I’m glad you’re back. :)

ALN_with_an_E said,

January 17, 2006 @ 3:21 pm

Nooope

Love_Eternal_Desire said,

January 17, 2006 @ 4:07 pm

What you have no knowledge of doesn’t exist in your world, therefore, you can have good without bad, if you never knew what bad was.  But then, you wouldn’t know that “good” is “good”–rather, you’d think that it’s just…”there”, the way it is.  Since there is no comparison, it’d just be….”it”.

Jiffipop said,

January 17, 2006 @ 4:17 pm

No disrespect to your friend… but he/she is an idiot. Sorry, I said it. And if you disagree with me that they’re an idiot, then you might be the idiot because you’re arguing with someone who’s arguing just to argue. Which might make you an even bigger idiot for keeping this friend, hehe. I’m kidding!!! hahaBut seriously… I don’t understand the point of the argument. You realize that in the processes of thinking things out logically, you’ve thought it out one step further than your friend. Just discontinue arguing with someone who’s stubborn in their ignorance… you might as well be arguing with a wall.yin and yang

superblyROCKIN said,

January 17, 2006 @ 4:34 pm

This is something I’ve thought about my whole life. And I think that without good, there is no bad and vise versa. But of course, without one, the other one will still be there, it jsut won’t be called “good” or “bad”, because good or bad is just comparison, they aren’t real names. So I conclude that there can’t be a good without a bad, only as labels. =)

ch50 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 4:45 pm

goob fixes bad …………….. can’t be one without the other.

spcemarine said,

January 17, 2006 @ 4:56 pm

Whether you can have good without the possibility of the existence of bad all just comes down to how you define the word “good”. Lots of these things all just come down to definitions.Given any physical object or property, of course its existence in the world isn’t predicated on it not existing somewhere else. It simply is.

sunnysidedown828 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 5:19 pm

i agree with you.

buddyhood said,

January 17, 2006 @ 5:45 pm

sorta like can there be love without hatred..

KrNbOi54843837 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 6:32 pm

does worse = bad? (the bowl, math problem scenarios)i think those those are just varying levels of efficiency.i don’t think the question is very useful, since both good and bad exist, and i don’t think it’s possible to answer it definitely, since it could only be a conjecture at best. but, it is an interesting one, and my guess would be yes, although it would be a sort of “ignorant” knowledge/understanding of what is good (e.g., the garden of eden). we would just accept what was there, and it would happen to be good since it was nice, although there would be no comparisons available. eh, don’t know if that made any sense.

violenne said,

January 17, 2006 @ 7:04 pm

well you have to experience the bad to appreciate the good…so you can’t really tell how good something is unless you know what the bad is.. if one grows up exposed to only all the bad in the world, then how would they know that that’s bad? if that’s all they know, then that’s what’s normal for them.. they can’t tell if that’s bad or if that’s good.. well that’s my view.. i’m bad at explaining stuff so i don’t know if i got it out right.. hehe

violenne said,

January 17, 2006 @ 7:07 pm

but yea, i agree with you basically hahaha

zhaoyun1122 said,

January 17, 2006 @ 7:37 pm

The answer is no … w/o bad, you won’t know good, w/o good, you won’t know bad =)

projectblogsphere said,

January 17, 2006 @ 8:24 pm

There can most definately be good without bad.  Good and bad is like black and white.  Black is black, even in the absence of white.  Similarly, good is good, and bad is bad.  I think the notion that there must be evil in order for good to exist is due to the fact that people tend to judge one thing against something else, which isn’t necessary at all.

Scorpi said,

January 17, 2006 @ 9:42 pm

zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance- robert pirsigit has all the “Good” discussions you could ever want.if you’ve not read it yet, you are nothing more than a rookie.that goes for all the “azn’s” out there, too. ;-)

rice_and_noodles said,

January 18, 2006 @ 1:22 am

In order to be good, there has to be bad.  If not, how do we know if something is good without having something bad and vice versa.  The Chinese philosophy daoism, confirms that good and bad coexist.  How can you have one without the other.

IagosEnvy said,

January 18, 2006 @ 2:57 am

This reminds me of the quality discussion in the book “Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance”. I like your reasoning.

whonose said,

January 18, 2006 @ 2:59 am

howdy! did you get the hoody?

HISjade said,

January 18, 2006 @ 3:30 am

its a really interesting topic…..by i agree with you….its like you have to feel to be able to truley appreaciate the good….
without heartache being in love just isnt the same….
there is no one without the other….
its like ying n yang….

shortfused said,

January 18, 2006 @ 4:44 am

good and bad are qualitative… if something is the only option, it just is…

e_rika said,

January 18, 2006 @ 5:12 am

nope…everything is relative. 
“without the bitter, the sweet ain’t as sweet, baby!”

gooksantiger said,

January 18, 2006 @ 6:23 am

there can’t be bad without good. same things the the temperature. there is not such things as a coldness. only heat exist and cold is hot little the heat is. therefore, no heat = no cold. so my point is you need one of them to measure the other one

sfrgl24 said,

January 18, 2006 @ 7:48 am

The thing you have at the top is so cute! and i love your background and layout!XxSw3eTdReAm3rxX

CivicRacr said,

January 18, 2006 @ 8:22 am

I’m not bad. I’m just drawn that way. ~ Jessica Rabbit

d_art said,

January 18, 2006 @ 9:05 am

i agree with you.   just the idea that anything can suit your purpose indicates an opposite of the fact. 

mely_chiquita said,

January 18, 2006 @ 10:15 am

well i think you’re right!

maddhat said,

January 18, 2006 @ 11:18 am

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sharks_do_not_climb_rainbows said,

January 18, 2006 @ 11:27 am

I agree with you.

sleeunit said,

January 18, 2006 @ 11:46 am

there can be good without bad. but not on this earth

yakko1 said,

January 18, 2006 @ 12:10 pm

Agreed… I think the theme song to the Facts of Life had it right:  “You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life, the facts of life.”  Hahaha… :-P

babygirl7649 said,

January 18, 2006 @ 12:15 pm

no if there is no bad then there is no good. good always beats da bad but if there is no bad there is no good.thats what i think. kool website i like it.

chublin said,

January 18, 2006 @ 12:22 pm

I have a niece who is nearly two years old. She knows that mommy and daddy and granny love her, and that feeding ducks on the farm is a good time. That she has never known hate does not seem to stop her from understanding that she is loved. That she has never been abused doesn’t stop her from enjoying hugs.
pluralism is a myth.

Dark_Zen_Angel said,

January 18, 2006 @ 12:46 pm

There’s has to be bad 4 good.
There would be no balance if you cancel one out.
That kinda goes with the “Paradise” thing.
History has a way of repeating itself.
To have a hero,you must have a villian.
Simple as that.

AConstantContradiction said,

January 18, 2006 @ 1:04 pm

I suppose it is the pecimistic view but I do side with you one that one.  I believe there cannot be good without bad. 

lilsheels248 said,

January 18, 2006 @ 1:28 pm

no because then you couldn’t compare the “good” to anything to see if it really is good.

xxInnocent_Lookxx said,

January 18, 2006 @ 1:48 pm

random propz

asiaticfool said,

January 18, 2006 @ 2:16 pm

Aloha! My opinion is that Good does not exist without bad , the good would not be valid to be displayed unless there’s a competitive edge of the 2…Evil cannot exist without the power of good on the same note therefore us Chinese have a good way to explain it…Yin /Yang Mahalo!

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January 18, 2006 @ 2:33 pm

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Paula_Rocks_ur_World said,

January 18, 2006 @ 2:39 pm

Sorry i was borde hope you dont mind! Most people aren’t sure of what they really want inlife. I received thisletter from a friend on the computer, did what it toldme to, and within aweek, everything I had wished came true!! Here’s anexact copy, this reallyworks!!!!*************************************************************1. To yourself, say the name of the onlyguy or girl you wanna be with 3times!*************************************************************2. Think of something you wanna accomplishwithin the next week and say it to your self 6times!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>3. If you had 1 wish what would it be? say it toyourself 9 times!!!———————————————————————–4. Think of something that you want to happenbetween you and that 1special person and sayit to your self 12 times!!!——————————————————————–5. Now, heres the hard part! Pick only 1 of thesewishes and asyou scroll down focus andconcentrate on it and think on nothingelse but that wish.* ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *Now make one last &final wish about that one wish thatyou picked.After reading this, you have 1 hour to send it out to15 people, and whatyou wished for will come true within in one week!u only get one chance!!!!! Now scroll down and thinkof yourcrush!!!Keep going downKeep goingKeep going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Did you think of your crush? I hope so, that wasyour last chance. Now pay very close attention thisimportant message!Sorry but once read, must be sent. Yes, this is one ofthose kinda chainletters that everyone hates. This one has been goingsince 1863 and if youbreak this chain, you will pay!!!!!! Remember thatafter hearing thesestories.First Example:Take Barbra Wallace.. She was a pretty lucky girl,up till she got this same chain letter. She had acrush on the same kidsince kindergarden. when she got this mail she didn’tpay any attention toit. She just thought, no big deal. And deleted it. Thenext day her dadgot fired and her mom dies in a car crash. If shewould have sent theletter none of that would have happened and her momwould be alive.Second Example:Try Freddie D. Now Freddie D. was your averagenerd. Had glasses, was short and chubby, was ingifted. All the signs ofyour total dork. He also received this letter and sentit to 51 people inthe hour. Now, like Barbra, he had a crush on a girlsince 3rd grade. Thenext day after sending the chain the girl confessedher love for him eversince 3rd grade. Freddie D. finally had the courage toask her out, and ofcourse, she had been waiting to yes to that for years.They grew up andmarried each other to live happily forever.Third Example:Now if you couldn’t relate to the others, this’llget ya hooked. Listen to this. A kid named JordanJohnson was justgetting on AOL to check his mail. He was a quiet kid,not that popular butnot a geek either. he was just normal. He saw he hadmail from hisfriend. It was this exact letter. Now Jordan Johnsenwas a smart kid andhe knew what could happen if he didnt pass it on. Hesimply pulled a fewfriends from his buddy list and sent it along. Thenext day, about thatsame time, he got a phone call. It said he had won thelottery! then hisdad came home and bought him a new bike! His mombought him Nintendo64 andplay station! His grandmother sent him a new computer,and his best friendgave him tickets to the concert he wanted to go to,Kid Rock and LimpBizkit! Then he inherited a brand-new tv from hisaunt! He was goin’ wild!the next day his secret crush asked him out, and theyhave been going outever since.Now, you heard the stories. I know which person i’dratherbe, but thats up to you. I wouldn’t wanna end up likeBarbra but thatsonly me. We all want what we cant have but now’s urchance to go out withthat special somebody ur waiting for. Take it or leaveit. If you sendthis to-1 person- you will lose all luck in ur lovelife…..forever!!!!!10 people- your crush will say they like you as afriend……ONLY!!!!!15 people- your crush will say they like you20 people- your crush will ask you out!25 people- your crush will kiss you!!30 people – Your crush will have sex with you35 people or more- All of the above!!Don’t blow it, it’s ur chance to shine! Haveeverything u wanted, and more! Now, complaining cus udont have anyfriends. Well theres an answer 4 everything. It’ssimple, just go in achat room, pick some names and send away! but here’sthe catch…..you onlyhave one hour to send it after being read. Please passthis to everyone uknow and keep it goingMost people aren’t sure of what they really want inlife. I received thisletter from a friend on the computer, did what it toldme to, and within aweek, everything I had wished came true!! Here’s anexact copy, this reallyworks!!!!

doveAd said,

January 18, 2006 @ 3:51 pm

Good is long term; evil is short term and will self-destruct.

soxiety said,

January 18, 2006 @ 4:09 pm

hey shi…i’m new here and came across your post. i like your ideas…fyi, cs lewis tackles a lot of the same issues in a book called mere christianity…you might find it interesting. all the best…jc

ShadowReaverNY said,

January 18, 2006 @ 5:32 pm

I think bad and good is based on scenarios, there are many scenarios where there is good and bad. It really depends on the situation, ie. you and a co-worker are trying to get a promotion… and you both work hard to achieve this promotion, but your co-worker gets the promotion and you dont. To the co-worker its a good thing and to you it’s a bad thing and vice versa.Or it is because of society. Your ideas and morals all come from the time period and what is considered the popular view. For example owning slaves in the 21st century is a bad thing and in the 1600’s was a good things. … There are many different interpretations and ideas to this question that I believe no one will agree on one answer

UnSpoken___x said,

January 18, 2006 @ 5:51 pm

no; its like ying && yang

GRatChiselRiz said,

January 18, 2006 @ 6:56 pm

you’re right, like the site… go ahead and visit mine if you want!

nuttyPoo said,

January 22, 2006 @ 5:23 pm

i don’t know about this one. i knew good before i knew bad, because the median was what i was comparing it to, but that median wasn’t bad, it was just… a median.

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